Isaiah closes his book with these words: Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) — “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. Follow us at www.protestia.com, How Our Exclusive Content Section Was Murdered By Big Tech Censorship, The myth of the rope around the high priest’s ankle, The myth that all the Apostles were martyred, These Preachers Ain’t Loyal: Why Jamal Harrison Bryant is Symptomatic of a Deeper Problem, About That Girl With the Violin On The Subway Platform …, Charismatics Now Using “Christian” Tarot Cards. That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. I don’t think that was a coincidence. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. [Are you serious? Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. 1:7 where it says Jesus will be revealed from heaven in "blazing fire" and those who do not know God will be eternally destroyed by the fire of his presence, like how Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire (p.s. And then "the age" is either eternal both times or it is temporal. We should rather shun them than let them damage our salvation. Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. All the while, under the surface, the fire still burned, devouring the putrid garbage days and weeks past. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”. The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnom", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. That's a whole different ballgame to the gap in the Lazarus parable, which actually talks about hell. But since there was so much garbage, and … In times of war, decaying human flesh mingled with the rotting garbage—imagine the vile vision. It is part and parcel with the place that we normally call Hell. I find it hard to believe that Ezekiel's prophecy would be fulfilled by claiming some other town was built on the site and inhabited later on. Gehenna. It is also said that executed criminals were dumped there as well. It can't. The first post-apostolic council at Nicea was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen who was a universalist. Grey Waste: Next Baator: While the qualities of Gehenna are widely known — massive fragments of rock, of varying levels of volcanic activity, floating in an infinite void — the core nature of Gehenna is less so. Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? I went to a website and read the list of anathemas directed against his teachings and found out that he goes farther than the final restoration of all of mankind and goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved. Yes, that Origen took the idea of universal salvation to its extreme (though it is unclear how far he actually believed this to be factual or whether he was simply engaging in an experiment of thought) and it was this extreme form that was shocking to many Christians. "In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council.". So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" – but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. "For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride, "before your wickedness was uncovered. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. So if "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek", we suddenly arrive at "age-during" instead of "eternal life", Thanks for turning Christ's wonderful promise into a banality, even more so when the "age" only endures until 70 AD. This dump was on the south side of Jerusalem. For some reason this comment got swallowed up yesterday: "You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. There’s nothing before that. So no "this verse could be left out" reasoning. He is talking about things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so, "the flesh". “With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimhi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse; ‘therefore the judgment of the wicked is parabolically called Gehenna.’ But from the Biblical references the place appears to have nothing physically objectionable about it; in contrast to its contemporary condition Jeremiah prophesied that it would one day be called ‘Valley of Slaughter’” (“The Holy City and Gehenna,” JBL 27/1 [1908], 34). Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. Which brings us back to our starting point: it is eternal for good and bad or age-enduring for both, not this for one and that for another.]. [What has that got to do with it. Reading these posts made me happy to be a conditionist! 24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”, "If it was clearly taught in scripture, why was no council convened to condemn the heresy of universal salvation …". The objection that "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are used in parallel in Matthew 25:46, and therefore aionian must means eternal is based on a false presumption that the "aionian life" which is spoken of would have to come to an end at the same time that the "aionian" punishment does. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught. "At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? 1 Corinthians 15 – you overreading again. Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". Maybe you guys think you are as smart as our all knowing all seeing creator. Even the bodies of dead animals and unburied criminals were brought here. Gehenna became a place where corpses of criminals, dead animals, and all manners of refuse were thrown to be destroyed. It doesn't matter what we think! "WHEN your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. Fears becalmed. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. If they contradict e.o., they contradict e.o. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening (Isaiah 30:33). He does not cast off forever. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. I thought, Anon, you didn't have time. As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. If it were "eternal pruning" and this doesn't make sense to you, your problem is with Christ. After all, Samaria did not return either but found successors that, though unconneceted with the northern kingdom, called themselves Samaritans. In Old Testament times, children had been sacrificed to idols there (2 Kings 23:10); in Jesus’ day, it was a place burning with constant fires to consume the waste that was thrown there. Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. You first have to make the text fit your interpretation. New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! The dump, which contains all the refuse of the Capital, has piled up into a hill which could pass off as Delhi’s Gehenna. But Are We Listening? Still, that's no basis for any claims about how eternal does not mean eternal or how undying fire/worms suddenly mean dying-only-later fire/worms. It does not need to be quenched. He is not being literal here", "He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man.". Advanced Search. At the same time, I hope you will believe me that the vast majority of Christians you believe in things like eternal salvation and damnation are not motivated by any joy in seeing other people suffer but by respect for Christ's teaching, Christ's judgement and for other people's freedom of choice. There are a lot of things we need to be saved from at this point, but there will come a point when there will be nothing we need to be saved from. I have seen one in Chennai. City officials occasionally sought to get rid of the garbage and also cover the stench by igniting the refuse on fire. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of jthe daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. He implies that Hebrews 9:27-28 teaches this: “Jesus died a physical death. The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward. Thanks for posting. Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. You are confusing the matters under discussion at the time whith what others wrote at other times. >>And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. I don't believe that and I don't believe the last commenter does either. I thought the Passover lambs were all sacrificed on the Temple Mount. Kolasin has as it's root meaning "to prune" something away or remove it in order to IMPROVE it. oh my. You cannot base yourself on the supposed "true" meaning of a word Jesus used while at the same time ignoring that he also spoke of eternal punishment. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna. The rest of the world will not "suffers unimaginable torment for eternity" – the world will be with God, whose judgement is just, even in regard to the damned. It means that there is no coming back from this destruction. Though only for a while, but of course his being rejected is not related to any universalist teaching (if he held such, which is not undisputed), which were not the issue in 381. What the text clearly says is that Sodom serves as an example linked to those suffering in eternal fire. It might have been just as well to not press it. You are right about the two Gregory's too. Rome? But that was the exception and in violation of the principles. If you don't like it, go and take something else but don't put your thoughts into Christ's mouth. I find it much easier to explain passages such as Matthew 25:46 in light of the above verses. OR, the age-during life with Christ could be just that, since in 1 Corinthians it talks about Christ giving up his kingdom to the Father at the end of time. You are simply ignoring these. That's why Jerome translated it aeternam in Latin as well, because he knew what was implied by the Greek. This is the third entry in a three-part series deconstructing popular illustrations that pastors give their congregations, all of which might sound good or spiritual, but do not correspond to history or reality. (And note: it's a parable, a story with a lesson, not necessarily a description of actual conditions in the after-life, especially when you become too technical. [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. Check out Matt 25:46. After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. And again, the worms and fire are figurative – the real "punishment" (actually not so much a punishment but the consquence of one's decision) is having missed the last opportunity to be part of God's kingdom. That’s the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. It says it is "not quenched". There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. But you are faking compassion – you don't want the damned to suffer but have no problem with seeing them dead. The two Gregory 's too be no death – yes physical actual death - for believers: )... A hilltop in Jerusalem is presented in a burning trash dump a `` of. And can we actualle be cartain about the entire early church, which they as. Matthew 25:46 in light of that fact certainly locked as long as the wedding feast.... 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Samaria and Juda would return to their former state called themselves Samaritans executed criminals were there!

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